] [Thread] [Date] [Author]

[Julie Mark Cohen <jmcohen(--nospam--at)emf.net>]

*Lower* race?  (see below)
These discussions need to STOP now, if they end up being inadvertently 
inflammatory.  I took great offense at this comment, and I am only caucasian.
Structural engineers need to THINK before they open their mouths or set 
their fingers to the keyboard.  These words are just the type to which 
all of us have been referring as derogatory and discriminatory.  As our 
grandparents said, "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all."

In our experience, the men who have been and are the most cruel in their 
views on hiring women employees and subcontractors are U.S. born.  

Cultural biases?  Maybe.  Country of birth is more like it, rather than a 
specific culture.

     First, there is no such thing as two candidates of *exactly* equal 
merit.  This is just impossible.  Ask for an additional reference from 
each candidate.  Give the candidates a written and/or oral exam that 
examines both technical and communications skills.  Ask the candidates 
to draw something in 3-D freehand and to scale (which should have been 
something used to identify students who get good grades by pure 
memorization).  Ask each candidate to prepare 100 words as to why they 
want to work for _you_.    
     Second, there is no statistical basis in the field of structural 
engineering to stereotype minorities as being worse off financially, 
especially when they finish college.  Some of my classmates made money in 
school by accepting scholarships from both their home countries (without 
telling the U.S. school) and from the U.S. school.  Some of my U.S. born 
male friends (and their parents) looked like paupers in comparison.  
     Third, why hire someone who has a family to take care of, instead of 
hiring a single person?  I often hear the excuse that the _man_ has to 
support "n" dependents, whereas a woman does not have to do this.  One 
older member of SEAONC told me that I had no right asking him for a job 
because I am getting a salary from my husband.  These _inane_ remarks  
should not even come into play (but they do every day).

Again, if you want to compete for PAID work in 1996, don't hire your local 
photocopy store as your DWBE and your local drafting company as your 
DMBE, look seriously at joining a TEAM with talented DWBEs and DMBEs.  
Once again, there are selected DWBEs and DMBEs who are excellent at what 
they do, and may have even started their businesses to take advantage of 
the affirmative action programs.  They may have just been pre-excluded 
from employment by others.  
Perhaps, even consider a TEAM in which a DWBE or DMBE takes the lead with 
you as _the_ prime subcontractor.  Given the unlevel playing field, this 
may be a better _financial_ path until you are given a fairer, more level 
field.  Who knows?  Maybe, a special DWBE or DMBE, through friends from 
their college years or wherever, can help you procure projects that you 
have dreamed about.
If you want to be paid, you may have to play a game that is not your cup 
of tea.


On Sat, 30 Dec 1995, Shafat Qazi wrote:

> I am so busy monitoring the heavy traffic on this list that I don't get 
> time to send my comments. I think all the discussions are excellent and 
> gives me joy to see engineers finally communicating. When I proposed the 
> mailing list to SEAOSC, I was not sure if it would be a success. Looking at 
> the traffic of my email, I will say it is a HIT.
> 
> I strongly believe that a candidate should be selected purely on merit 
> basis. But then, if two candidates are of equal merit, credit should be 
> given to the minority. Simply because, if you can help improve their 
> lifestyle, you and your family will live a better life. Probably help 
> reduce the crime too.
> A successful minority person's children will most probably be educated and 
> successful too.
> 
> In reference to women: I think discrimination against women is purely based 
> on cultural background and upbringing of the person. I was shocked to read 
> Julie's email. I can't believe that there are people like that, especially 
> in this country.
> 
> To summarize:
> Select on basis of credit not race.
> Prefer lower race if credits match.
> Treat women as human and except the fact that they can be more 
> knowledgeable than you.
> 
> Keep the fire on......
> 
> Shafat Qazi
>